The Retirement Conversation Between Me + My Service Member
🤓 Welcome to a new type of episode on this podcast.
Join me for an impromptu, introspective conversation between me and my service member about potentially retiring from the military in the next few years.
We're in that limbo period where no decision has been made, but this conversation has come up more frequently in the past 6 months.
If you're where we are now, we want to hear from you! Let us know what resonated with you: I love DMs! @mil.spouse
The background music is Hostiles: the Original Motion Picture Soundtrack by Max Richter.
All music rights belong to Max Richter, I do not own this song.
Let's chat about this episode - I love DMs! @mil.spouse
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The Heart of a Milspouse Podcast is hosted by Jayla Rae Ardelean, Late Career Milspouse, Mentor, Speaker, and Certified Enneagram Coach.
Grab your ✨free✨ enneagram resource here: jaylarae.com/enneagram-guide
Let's chat! @mil.spouse
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TRANSCRIPT: The Retirement Conversation Between Me + My Service Member
[00:00:00] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Okay. So this episode is unlike any episode I've ever recorded, because first of all, it was incredibly impromptu and unplanned. Uh, I'm about to drop you into the middle of a conversation, really that my husband and I began to have one night in January. Over quite a few Negroni's and. Feeling really, uh, introspective and challenged by our future in military life. And how we're going to continue if we choose to stay in and what retirement looks like and. Just trying to figure out where we're at with all of that. So. I want you to know that by the time this episode goes live it's, um, let's see, it's going to be at the end of February. So it's been about a month and a half since this conversation happened.
[00:00:57] Jayla Rae Ardelean: And since it happened, there have been no [00:01:00] decisions regarding retirement. We're just in that limbo period of figuring things out. And that's one of the reasons I wanted to bring this conversation to the podcast to begin with, because I think it could be really hopefully really useful and have a lot of resonance with some of you who may be having this conversation as well.
[00:01:20] Jayla Rae Ardelean: And it basically started as we were sitting on the couch and, you know, just chilling. Listening to music on YouTube. And then Jeremy suggested at one point, wow, maybe we should like be recording this just for like posterity's sake. And of course my next question was, I think for posterity is a good enough reason. And also, would you be open to putting this on the podcast? So. After I have done a rigorous editing process.
[00:01:49] Jayla Rae Ardelean: It's available and it's here on the podcast. Um, But that also means that there's quite a bit of heavy edits throughout the conversation. And there's a few points at which we jump [00:02:00] around and that's because there was a lot of Dead air and transitional space and, and those kinds of things in the conversation. I never actually pulled out my actual podcast mic. Uh, it was just recording on my phone so, um, hopefully the sound is adequate and enjoy.
[00:02:22] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Yes. For the past few months, this conversation has definitely been more intense and ramped up.
[00:02:28] Jayla Rae Ardelean: However, I would say that since I met you seven years ago, this has always been a conversation of ours at some point or another?
[00:02:40] What would you call, what would you say the conversation is?
[00:02:43] Jayla Rae Ardelean: The conversation usually starts with what do I wanna be when I grow up?
[00:02:47] J: it does, because I'm almost, almost, I'm, I'm looking at 40 and I don't know what I wanna be when I grow up.
[00:02:56] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Okay. But my point is, even seven years ago, [00:03:00]
[00:03:00] J: even back then, I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up.
[00:03:03] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Because you were already grown up.
[00:03:05] J: Nah, that's debatable. Well, we're getting off track though now.
[00:03:09] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Okay.
[00:03:12] J: So I think the bottom line is starting to, well have been asking for some time, but starting to more seriously ask the question of where is the off ramp for us when it comes to military life and
[00:03:37] J: Well, there's some squealing puppies outside.
[00:03:40] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Oh my gosh. Well, last night it was our dogs.
[00:03:42] J: Yeah. Last night it was our dogs. Tonight sounds like coyotes or something. Coyotes of Rome.
[00:03:48] J: Um, but just in the last
[00:03:57] J: couple of months it seems like that [00:04:00] discussion has been revitalized and has kind of taken more of a center stage in terms of us asking each other where is the off-ramp when for, for our life in the military. And obviously a more relevant question now that we're approaching the timeframe at which I would be eligible to drop my paperwork for retirement.
[00:04:26] J: Uh, you know, I think we're what, four months out from when I could start theoretically starting that process. And
[00:04:39] Jayla Rae Ardelean: I mean, I think it's important to say that it is theoretical.
[00:04:42] J: Yeah. No, our, our, we have not made up our minds in any way, shape, or form.
[00:04:47] Jayla Rae Ardelean: No.
[00:04:50] J: And we are currently in a great assignment, you know, with the kids--
[00:04:54] Jayla Rae Ardelean: --with the potential to extend in this current assignment, meaning no more PCSing.
[00:04:59] J: Yeah.
[00:04:59] J: [00:05:00] We've, we've, you know, all the stars aligned to this last rotation and, and every sense of the word. And we're certainly aware and grateful of that. Um, aware of and grateful for that.
[00:05:12] Jayla Rae Ardelean: you sound like you're saying a prayer.
[00:05:17] Jayla Rae Ardelean: You do you sound like your dad for a second.
[00:05:20] Jayla Rae Ardelean: did you hear it?
[00:05:22] J: All right. I'm just gonna try to go back into the mode I was in before we hit record on this cause I thought I actually sounded somewhat authentic and put together an well thought out, and somewhat maybe even intelligent.
[00:05:38] Jayla Rae Ardelean: But it's gonna be hard to return to that because now that we've hit the record button it changes.
[00:05:45] J: Yeah. I'm gonna move this. You can't device No right in front of me cuz then that freaks me out.
[00:05:52] Jayla Rae Ardelean: No, but okay. But you have to talk louder.
[00:05:55] J: Turn it over. Turn upside down maybe.
[00:05:57] J: No. So I'm not,
[00:05:58] Jayla Rae Ardelean: no, it's [00:06:00] right here.
[00:06:01] J: Okay.
[00:06:01] Jayla Rae Ardelean: It's getting all the action right here.
[00:06:04] J: All right, well I'm gonna start this music over well and then just let me rant. Just let me go. For a little bit.
[00:06:11] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Okay. Is this a conversation or is this just you ranting?
[00:06:14] J: Let me rant for a bit.
[00:06:15] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Okay.
[00:06:21] J: So for me it's for a while now I've kind of gone back and forth on the one hand realizing the very practical aspects of staying in longer, better retirement, potentially not having to work a second career. Um, that balance with the fact that I think I maybe want to work a second career and that there's another part of me that isn't feeling fulfilled right now.
[00:06:55] J: And I say that with the full realization that [00:07:00] as you're well aware of, my personality type is such that I. and, and I think the best way to describe it is that I feel the need to have a life mission, not just a job, but a mission of sorts. Um, which is why the military is in many ways, a great fit. Um, just having that--
[00:07:28] Jayla Rae Ardelean: because it's built in.
[00:07:29] J: Yeah. I mean, it's not just a job, it's not just a career. It's, it's
[00:07:34] J: well, I would say that most people, or a lot of people, I would say, I would say that most people in life struggle, what's, what's the purpose of their life? They get to a point in their life and when it's not just putting food on the table. And they start to ask those questions. But, you know, as, as long as I've been in this career field and, you know, in the military, I haven't had that, that problem.
[00:07:59] J: and [00:08:00] that's probably a whole nother discussion right there that could be had about what, you know, the nature of that and, and the desire for a mission. Or need for a mission. And that's probably a personality element to it. There's probably a, uh, religious upbringing element to it. There's lots of layers here that could be explored, but the point is that's, that's how I feel.
[00:08:21] J: So I've always known, and I've, I've said from a young age that I wouldn't be happy. Um, you know, the, the, you know, selling, selling razor blades or managing a big box store or, you know, uh, working at a convenience store or, or any, anything. You know, where it's a job, it, it, to me, it's gotta be more, it's gotta be a mission.
[00:08:49] J: And increasingly as I've gotten older and, and progressed, I've felt more and more like there's an element that's not [00:09:00] being, you know, satisfied. There's more, it's more of an element of,
[00:09:02] J: there's a creative aspect of, I've known for a while now that a part of my identity is that I want to be or see myself as a storyteller. You know, to use kind of an archetype. You know, the,
[00:09:20] J: the person who ensures that wisdom is passed from generation to generation, which you,
[00:09:27] Jayla Rae Ardelean: is that what you think of as storytelling?
[00:09:34] J: I don't know when I first realized that this was something that I felt passionate about,
[00:09:37] J: I think it was
[00:09:40] Jayla Rae Ardelean: definitely after you married me.
[00:09:42] J: Definitely.
[00:09:47] J: No, I, I think, um,
[00:09:54] J: I think there's a couple elements here. I, I think there's a desire [00:10:00] to educate and, you know, I come from, you know, my, my dad was a, you know, a teacher and then a professor, and so I think that's in some ways in my blood or ingrained in, ingrained in me or whatever. But I've always felt immense amount satisfaction and investing in, and teaching and developing and counseling others to become better versions of themselves.
[00:10:26] J: But there's also this idea that
[00:10:31] J: after a career in the military and, and coming to, coming up on 18 years now, with a lot of that time spent, uh, deployed or, you know, in combat zones and in, uh, certain situations, just the idea that not only do I receive an innate [00:11:00] kind of reward or feel positive about my mission, being one of somebody who educates and develops and helps others and passes wisdom or knowledge along, but also the fact that now I feel like I have of something to say at this point in my life.
[00:11:21] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Yeah.
[00:11:21] J: So those two things, those two elements have kind of collided in a sense and have come together. And I feel like I have a lot of things that I want to say, a lot of things that I do, a lot of things that I see. And I think, um, you know, one of the things that I mentioned was after spending almost two decades, uh, you know, the best years of my life, so to speak, uh, having taken an oath and, and acting and, you know, being separated from every family to, you know, defend our nation.
[00:11:58] J: I see things in our nation [00:12:00] now that frankly put it at risk. It's very survival at risk. And so those are some of the things that I feel passionate about now, um, in terms of being a storyteller, being, uh, somebody who calls attention to these things.
[00:12:20] Jayla Rae Ardelean: So, but is it, that's your phone, ? That's my phone. It's okay.
[00:12:26] Jayla Rae Ardelean: It's not important or, I mean, it's not an emergency.
[00:12:32] J: Okay.
[00:12:34] J: Um, and I don't feel like I'm saying any of this nearly as well as I was before we--
[00:12:37] Jayla Rae Ardelean: can I say what, what you had said before we started recording?
[00:12:40] J: Yeah. What did I say?
[00:12:41] Jayla Rae Ardelean: All right, let me sink into it
[00:12:46] J: and then we need another Negroni.
[00:12:48] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Yeah.
[00:12:52] Jayla Rae Ardelean: I mean the music was swelling at the moment that you said this, and that's why it felt kind of like a sermon. [00:13:00] You said, you know, the very nation that I spent the better years of my life defending and protecting and. You didn't use this word, but I'll use this word now. Sustaining
[00:13:22] Jayla Rae Ardelean: feel at risk based on where our nation stands now. And you had said that under the context of storytelling and how you would use your perspective after retirement, essentially, in figuring out how best to make that point.
[00:13:54] J: Yeah. What the tool is.
[00:13:56] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Yeah, what the tool is
[00:13:57] J: and what the mechanism
[00:13:58] Jayla Rae Ardelean: and you have a lot of different [00:14:00] ideas about which mechanism to choose. And yeah, I've continued to challenge you that. It doesn't just have to be one. And that you don't have to start large. You can start very small and work up to bigger things, but you know, when you're talking about writing a book on this topic and it's coming from this perspective
[00:14:36] J: Yeah.
[00:14:37] Jayla Rae Ardelean: That you hold.
[00:14:41] J: Yeah, no, I,
[00:14:41] Jayla Rae Ardelean: that's an important contextual piece that any reader would need to understand about the author, I think, cuz I think that's what makes it,
[00:14:58] Jayla Rae Ardelean: I don't think I'd said that to [00:15:00] you before.
[00:15:06] Jayla Rae Ardelean: And when we say the best years of your life, just for even further context, we're talking about Afghanistan and we're talking about Iraq.
[00:15:15] J: Yeah. And I mean, the fact that I went to college at 17, 9 11 happened. I, you know, commissioned four years later and here we are today and I've, you know, been in uniform ever since.
[00:15:30] J: So I mean, it's,
[00:15:31] Jayla Rae Ardelean: and I was in seventh grade during nine 11. we're six years apart. which I've always felt is not a big age gap, but just enough to where entire lives could be led completely differently.
[00:15:50] J: Yeah.
[00:15:51] Jayla Rae Ardelean: And that's been proven because you were married and had children Before I ever even thought about doing that [00:16:00] or considered that, I was ready for those kinds of things.
[00:16:04] J: Yeah.
[00:16:15] J: Yeah. No, I think you summarized some of what I said earlier quite well and.
[00:16:23] J: So just kind of, I guess the, the overarching sense that I have been dealing with is feeling like maybe the time is approaching, maybe the exit ramp from this career. The off ramp is coming up sooner rather than later. And feeling pressure and, and a bit of a panic almost to say, what am I doing next?
[00:16:51] J: What do I wanna be when I grow up? How do I tell, how do I make. , how do I stay true to this aspect of me, this part of me that [00:17:00] that needs to have a mission and not just a job. And that gets after some of these things that are currently lacking of me feeling like I have a story to tell and a lesson to teach, uh, or a concern to raise based on these things, uh, these feelings and this, this, frankly, this fear that I have over the future, that of our country and the direction that we're headed in.
[00:17:24] J: And the just, just the divisiveness of everything and the, the hatred and the vitriol that, you know, makes it impossible for us to have a conversation with someone that we disagree with, um,
[00:17:39] Jayla Rae Ardelean: which we experience too. Yeah. I mean, we're not saying we're above that. It's just become a lot more concrete in the past few years, you know?
[00:17:53] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Yeah.[00:18:00]
[00:18:04] J: Yeah. And, and just,
[00:18:13] J: you know, and, and kind of wrapped up in all this was this idea to, you know, this feeling that I've shared with you that there have been a couple times in my career where I've,
[00:18:29] J: um, dealt with some sort of fatigue or burnout. Um, you know, my first time, my first 15 month tour in Iraq as a platoon leader, just experiencing compassion fatigue and dealing with these, um, extreme situations, day in, day out, and. In meeting some of the,[00:19:00]
[00:19:01] J: you know, some of the Iraqi population, wonderful human beings who were under a tremendous amount of suffering and needed, needed help. That, and that many cases was not too much for me to provide, um, but just the constantness of it. And that juxtapose against the fact that, you know, on any given day, my focus was on making sure that, you know, the men I was leading would, you know, come home in one piece.
[00:19:40] J: And the fact that not all of them did,
[00:19:46] J: and just, I guess the, the contrast there and, and these two kind of clashing. .
[00:19:54] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Well, and what you had said before was that you had a notebook full of [00:20:00] promises that you made to other people that you were Yeah. Not able to fulfill or cross off because of compassion fatigue.
[00:20:08] J: Yeah. I mean, every day that was, you know, it's, it's one thing to, the first step is to win the, the trust and confidence of the people that you're there to, to, to help keep safe in this type of situation and help protect.
[00:20:25] J: And, but then that's just the first part. Once they are confident in, in your goodwill and your ability to, to keep them safe from, from threats, then the next thing is they're gonna ask for things. They're gonna ask for help. Cuz you know, once their immediate needs of security are, are, are met, they, they have multiple others and just,
[00:20:46] Jayla Rae Ardelean: you don't need to defend it babe.
[00:20:49] J: I know, I just, I, I just, I think this may be a bit of a foreign concept to many people. It was the idea that as a, how old was I? 22? Maybe
[00:20:59] Jayla Rae Ardelean: [00:21:00] You were like barely an adult.
[00:21:03] J: I was maybe 22, 23 years old. Being basically the, the police, the mayor, the utility company, the, you know, labor department, the, you know, all of the services, all, you know, representing the government essentially to a population of, you know, several thousand people having no idea how to, how to do this, and yeah, and just being constantly,
[00:21:36] J: what's up Bud
[00:21:41] Jayla Rae Ardelean: keep going.
[00:21:41] J: Just being constantly hammered with demands of. Yeah. Hey, I need help from this. Anything, you just, it got to the point where you can't even keep track of it anymore. You made so many promises and so many different people, and not promises, but in some cases it's promises. I guess [00:22:00]
[00:22:00] Jayla Rae Ardelean: what's one level down from promises?
[00:22:06] J: Commitments
[00:22:07] Jayla Rae Ardelean: yeah.
[00:22:09] J: To try, you know, I'm not, you know, I didn't usually, you know, try to avoid promising and you kind of result, but yeah, at least committing, Hey, I'll, I'll do what I can. But you just get to the point where you fill out, I mean, I had to write 'em all down in a notebook and literally just got to the point where I, you know, pages and pages and pages of these commitments that I had made to people.
[00:22:34] Jayla Rae Ardelean: And How old are you now?
[00:22:36] J: Now? Yeah. Uh, 39.
[00:22:42] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Do you remember what you wrote? In those pages?
[00:22:47] J: Uh, yeah. It wasn't any number of things. It was,
[00:22:53] J: uh, had, I mean, a comment was was, you know, I, us, us forces arrested [00:23:00] my, you know, insert type of family member here, cousin, brother or sister, father,
[00:23:06] Jayla Rae Ardelean: you stop annunciating when you're nervous.
[00:23:11] J: I didn't know I was nervous.
[00:23:12] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Yeah. You are. Well, or at least acutely aware that this is not a private conversation anymore.
[00:23:22] J: No. Maybe you should just let me rant for a little bit again.
[00:23:26] Jayla Rae Ardelean: I know I said I wasn't gonna make it a conversation, but like the writer, part of me, is like, is this an interview now?
[00:23:32] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Because it kind of feels like one
[00:23:35] J: I don't do well with interviews. I turn into interview jeremy,
[00:23:38] Jayla Rae Ardelean: you're kind of starting to turn into interview Jeremy,
[00:23:41] J: so maybe don't ask questions right now.
[00:23:45] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Okay.
[00:23:51] J: Anyway,
[00:23:53] Jayla Rae Ardelean: should I just walk away? Make us another drink?
[00:23:57] J: Yeah, that actually would be great. I could use another drink.
[00:23:59] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Bye.
[00:23:59] J: Bye. More [00:24:00] Negronis, Please.
[00:24:02] J: I'm gonna listen to music for a little bit.
[00:24:12] J: What were we talking about? Compassion fatigue.
[00:24:14] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Yeah. Which everyone can relate to by the way, but not everyone can relate to a soldier's level of compassion fatigue.
[00:24:28] J: Yeah. And I mean, this particular situation was one that lent itself well to that. I think what I had told you previously was like, I didn't have a word for it back then.
[00:24:41] J: I didn't have a term for it. I didn't know what compassion fatigue was. But several years later, while going through a train up to go to Afghanistan, I was watching a training video where they interviewed this, uh, this guy when he was talking about his [00:25:00] experiences in Afghanistan. And he was, he used that word compassion fatiguing.
[00:25:03] J: As soon as he did, as soon as he used that term, I was like, yes, I know exactly what he's talking about. This I. . I, I care, but I have nothing left to give. I understand your pain, but I can't have any kind of empathy and I can't do anything about it, even though I want to.
[00:25:26] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Well, it's the body's Sorry.
[00:25:33] Jayla Rae Ardelean: I have gold shit to say too, you know?
[00:25:35] J: I know, but as soon as I feel like it's an interview, I, I'm not my authentic self. I don't know.
[00:25:42] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Okay.
[00:25:43] J: It's harder for me to I know.
[00:25:47] J: So, so
[00:25:52] J: what was the point of that? Well, the point was that, that was to say that, and I went through a bit of just kind of regular old [00:26:00] burnout when I was in, I think grad school, you know, I went and saw a doctor about it at one point. And
[00:26:07] Jayla Rae Ardelean: adrenal fatigue.
[00:26:09] J: Yeah,
[00:26:09] Jayla Rae Ardelean: burnout.
[00:26:10] J: The best she could do and that we were living in New York at the time, the best she could do was offer to prescribe me weed.
[00:26:17] J: And I
[00:26:18] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Wait, didn't we see the same doctor
[00:26:20] J: we might have? And I,
[00:26:20] Jayla Rae Ardelean: we did, didn't we?
[00:26:21] J: I had to tell. I was like, unfortunately, my employer may not appreciate that
[00:26:25] Jayla Rae Ardelean: that was, I think that was the one and only medical experience we have in common. I forgot about that.
[00:26:32] J: She's like, well, you want a marijuana prescription?
[00:26:34] J: And I said, oh, nah, sorry. It's not gonna work for my employer. But, uh, yeah, um, that's kind. But, but I mean, I, I bring up that because what I'm feeling and experiencing now is in some ways a continuation or a similar [00:27:00] sense of compassion fatigue or career fatigue? Is that a thing? I mean, I don't know.
[00:27:07] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Absolutely.
[00:27:08] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Yeah. Let's coin it.
[00:27:10] J: Career fatigue.
[00:27:11] Jayla Rae Ardelean: I, I mean, I'm sure people have written about career fatigue.
[00:27:14] J: Yeah. It's gotta be a term,
[00:27:18] Jayla Rae Ardelean: but it's a, it's a particular brand of fatigue that then bleeds into other areas of your life.
[00:27:25] J: It's, it's a sense of, it, it's a sense of all of it that I've ex all the various fatigues I guess that I've experienced.
[00:27:36] J: On the one hand, this idea that like, I understand that what I'm doing is still a mission and it's still significant and it's still, but in some ways the tedious of it and the fact that I have to continue to basically follow through on and [00:28:00] prioritize what somebody else decides is important. Even at times when I disagree and don't think it's important. Which is not unique to the military of course, but
[00:28:12] Jayla Rae Ardelean: No, but it's sometimes yours is a life or death circumstance.
[00:28:18] J: Of course. I mean, you can give very passionate at times about your reasons for not prioriti or not wanting to prioritize what your leadership tells you you should be prioritizing and focused on.
[00:28:29] J: But maybe it's, this is a sort of elevated form of midlife crisis, but but that's kind of where I'm at and that's where I'm at lately. And it's a combination of like this fatigue with this realization that these other dimensions of me as a human being, that I see this, this idea that I'm exhausted, I'm emotionally drained, I've sacrificed a lot, and that I, I don't like even saying that out loud because [00:29:00] I understand that there are, I guess maybe this is a specific to the military, but a sense of guilt in acknowledging your own sacrifice.
[00:29:13] J: Because it feels like a privilege to acknowledge your sacrifice when there are those who aren't left here to do that anymore, who've given the ultimate sacrifice, their sacrificed more than you have. And it always feels inappropriate to look at the situation and say, Hey, uh, you know, I've been divorced twice.
[00:29:32] J: I've had, difficulties in my relationship with my kids and, and other things stemming directly from the fact that I was gone a lot stemming directly from the fact that I had a mission to do.
[00:29:46] J: but this, this sort of fatigue compounded with the fact that there's aspects of who I am and, and who I want to be that, you know, that aren't being [00:30:00] fulfilled currently in, in this career field. And, and so there's a, there's a bit of a grass is greener kind of mentality right now where I feel like,
[00:30:15] J: and, and I, and I say this, fully knowing that there will be things,
[00:30:21] J: if I choose, if we choose that it's time for me to go and get out. There will be things about this lifestyle that I will absolutely miss and that will tear at me.
[00:30:35] J: But at the same point in time, I'm increasingly of the mindset and feeling like I don't want to make the decision to stay in based disproportionately on the fear of mis on, on the fear that somehow life on the other side won't be as good as, as I think it will be.
[00:30:57] J: That, that maybe, maybe I won't succeed. Well, I [00:31:00] mean, fuck it. You've gotta try. You've got to-
[00:31:07] J: you know, part of what gives me fulfillment is investing my time and energy and something that I believe strongly in and, and going all out. And, you know, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But I'm going to, I'm gonna do it.
[00:31:18] J: I'm gonna do my best at it. I don't know, I feel like I've kind of hit a dead end here.
[00:31:26] J: You have brilliant shit to say, so you should say it.
[00:31:31] Jayla Rae Ardelean: I, well, it's not brilliant, but I mean, I think what you're saying about how you view your career and your mission is relatable to a lot of people who don't have the experience of military life because of our american upbringing. However, the way you talk about this [00:32:00] is, so Enneagram three, and I would be remiss to not recognize that because one of the challenges that I bring to you, often when you start a conversation by saying, what do I wanna be when I grow up? And you're not asking it seriously, you're like mostly joking, but it's also your way of starting a serious conversation.
[00:32:31] J: Yeah.
[00:32:33] Jayla Rae Ardelean: And I say more or less in different ways, I've said it in different ways,
[00:32:43] Jayla Rae Ardelean: that it's not about what you're going to be, it's about what you're going to do. And the reason I say that is because you enmesh and intertwine and cannot [00:33:00] unravel the mission with who you are.
[00:33:06] J: Yes.
[00:33:06] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Because those two things are conflated as equal
[00:33:10] J: a hundred percent.
[00:33:11] Jayla Rae Ardelean: That is not the experience of every human.
[00:33:16] Jayla Rae Ardelean: It's a common one in the military.
[00:33:19] J: Yeah.
[00:33:19] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Because you are literally conditioned to do so, and that is one of the reasons why type threes excel in the military. But I see the struggles and challenges of that on the other end, and I don't want you to leave and transition out, out and continue and repeat that cycle.
[00:33:48] J: I, I think you see it as more of an unhealthy thing. But I see it as more of a i, I think I would be more unhealthy if I [00:34:00] didn't have a mission,
[00:34:00] J: and I think I would--
[00:34:02] Jayla Rae Ardelean: I mean, I agree, but who you are as a person and a mission that you are serving and fulfilling are two different things.
[00:34:12] J: I think that we will fundamentally disagree on that for the rest of our lives.
[00:34:20] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Okay.
[00:34:21] J: Because to me, the very idea of getting out of the military and not having something that I am devoted to with, you know, obsessed with in, in a way and, and devoted to, and a purpose that drives me is perhaps the most frightening thing I can think of.
[00:34:53] Jayla Rae Ardelean: I understand and I, I want you to do that. It's not that I don't want you to do that, [00:35:00] but we're having a very idealistic conversation. The reality of you pinning your self-worth upon a mission and your output and what it is that you can do for a particular person or organization or for the world is noble in an idealistic reality.
[00:35:28] Jayla Rae Ardelean: The negative aspect of that is you overworking not understanding when to set boundaries. Not understanding when to tell people no and that that's okay that you can tell people no and overserving to the point where people stop recognizing how much you've done for them, because that's just what you always do, and the bar is too high.
[00:35:59] J: Yeah. [00:36:00] So I agree and disagree, and I think,
[00:36:06] Jayla Rae Ardelean: oh, it's a debate now.
[00:36:07] J: It's a debate. ,you have two minutes to make your point, and then the,
[00:36:13] Jayla Rae Ardelean: oh, I don't do, I don't do well with time limit. I sucked at debate.
[00:36:17] J: I think I kind of agree with your characterization of it,
[00:36:19] J: and I, I think before we hit record, , I essentially said the same thing. I you just kind of expressed a fear of like, am I doomed to live a life where on the one hand
[00:36:32] J: I am constantly feeling burnt out and exhausted and like I'm giving too much. And on the other hand, you know, on the other extreme, I'm, you know, if, if I, if I don't do that, then I'm constantly feeling like I'm inadequate and I'm not, I don't have a purpose and I don't have a mission. And I, and you know, what I'm doing isn't worthy of, of, I don't know.
[00:36:58] J: Dunno, [00:37:00] it's, it's essentially, I think, I think we just said the same thing in two different ways in, in some ways.
[00:37:06] Jayla Rae Ardelean: But, but you're, we did say it in two different ways, but you're , you're upholding the idealistic version of what we're saying instead of recognizing all of the negative aspects of it.
[00:37:22] J: Yes and no, because what I also said was
[00:37:28] J: I, I've come to the realization that, which is what you've told me for years, which is that you need to be your own boss.
[00:37:35] Jayla Rae Ardelean: I have said this for years. He needs to be an entrepreneur,
[00:37:41] J: and I think being in an environment and in a situation where I get to decide, I, I find the mission. I find a mission whatever.
[00:37:56] J: It's, but I get to decide within that what tasks [00:38:00] are priorities and what things need to be done and what is actually not important. I think that is the difference because I'm no longer giving to individuals or other people. It's, it's, no, I'm giving to the mission and in the purest form of it, and I think that there is, A way to find balance there because I am no longer burning myself out on tasks that someone else thinks are important for, you know, or not.
[00:38:31] J: But I know they're not. And I know they make, they're busy work, zero difference. They're busy work, they're, they're just mindless mind numbing tasks and drills that don't actually advance the mission or get after the thing that I feel committed to and passionate about. That is the thing that I think that burns me out and that causes me to hit this, these walls.
[00:38:55] Jayla Rae Ardelean: And when you go [00:39:00] into business for yourself, cuz I know this is gonna happen, I don't know what it is that you're gonna be doing. I don't know what it is that you're gonna be achieving. I don't actually know what the mission is when you go into business for yourself you will still need to be weary of that process because when it's all up to you, when it's all up to you, it is still difficult to prioritize and to understand what needs to be tackled right then, right there in order to achieve the goal.
[00:39:40] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Especially when you don't have a team following you and supporting you and picking up the slack and working on different priorities. When it's just you and it's solopreneur status, it's so much more difficult than [00:40:00] people realize until they're in it. Yeah. I don't,
[00:40:09] Jayla Rae Ardelean: I know you know that. I'm not saying you don't know that. I just. You're gonna run into the same issue of overworking yourself, relying on productivity and marking your day and your impact by how much you were able to get done. Instead of seeing that you, the human being, the authentic self, the person behind the mission is worth way more than the task and the task list, it's gonna happen.
[00:40:53] Jayla Rae Ardelean: I don't think that it's just the three in you that's prone to that. I think that it's just a cultural [00:41:00] conditioning that makes us prone to that. I still struggle with that. It's something that has to be evaluated and broken down.
[00:41:11] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Okay, y'all please forgive the brief interruption, but I just want to let you know that I have sliced and diced about a 10 minute portion of our conversation. Uh, away for the purpose of this episode. Um, it was mostly because my husband was really uncomfortable with our confrontational styles during that conversation and after I listened to it a few times, I agree. It doesn't necessarily need to be appearing on a podcast. But for the sake of transparency, I just wanted to let you know that it was here. And the next part of this conversation feels a little bit choppy because we are jumping from thing to thing. Thanks. Y'all.
[00:41:56] Jayla Rae Ardelean: How do you see yourself? [00:42:00] Because even after this entire conversation, I don't know that you've actually shared how,
[00:42:08] Jayla Rae Ardelean: like the image of you, like if you could boil it down to a few words, a few descriptions, what would it be?
[00:42:21] Jayla Rae Ardelean: And don't gimme the humble version or the version that you think other people would deem acceptable.
[00:42:32] J: I have lived my life with the mindset that the mission, whatever the mission might have been at that point in time, was the most important thing. I have sacrificed a lot in terms of personally and, and my relationships include my relationships with my children. For that ideal. [00:43:00] I have reached a point in my life
[00:43:01] J: where I can have a bit of hindsight, a bit of retrospect,
[00:43:06] J: and where I can
[00:43:07] J: make more informed decisions about how I spend my time in energy going forward. I don't regret the decisions or the causes that I've could have committed myself to, and I understand that I will continue to find a cause, even if, as I mentioned the causes, I have retired completely from the, the workforce and my biggest satisfaction and joy and mission in life is to be the best husband, father, and grandparent that I can be.
[00:43:46] J: That can be a mission.
[00:43:48] Jayla Rae Ardelean: But why isn't that the mission now?
[00:43:53] J: Because right now, as I've stated,[00:44:00]
[00:44:00] J: there's a side of me that is creative, that has a story to tell, that has wisdom. I hate using that word, but some lessons to pass along or that I feel like I need to be passed on, and that is an itch that hasn't been scratched. And right now I feel like that is the mission while still also focusing on those other things.
[00:44:30] J: I don't think they're mutually exclusive.
[00:44:32] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Well, no, but I know what it feels like for you to overwork yourself in one area, and the other one is at cost and it's usually the relationships.
[00:44:43] J: So what are you trying to say?
[00:44:50] Jayla Rae Ardelean: That I will always be a relationships focused person, and so we will always fundamentally disagree. and type [00:45:00] one is definitely in your try type
[00:45:02] J: Okay.
[00:45:03] J: I don't think this is turning out as brilliant as it was before it was recorded.
[00:45:07] Jayla Rae Ardelean: What?
[00:45:11] J: It's all about our feelings and emotions now.
[00:45:13] Jayla Rae Ardelean: What? And that's bad.
[00:45:18] J: Yeah, it's awful.
[00:45:19] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Why is, that's so awful.
[00:45:22] J: I need another know that. The negroni to answer.
[00:45:23] J: Oh
[00:45:24] Jayla Rae Ardelean: my God. Really?
[00:45:28] Jayla Rae Ardelean: You could, you could use more of just expressing an emotion.
[00:45:34] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Yes, I could. No,
[00:45:36] J: we're watching the Hostiles soundtrack on YouTube right now.
[00:45:40] J: Let me just listen to Hostiles and talk about the meaning of life.
[00:45:52] J: You're gonna need to edit the shit out of this. By the way, if you ever turn into a podcast, which I don't know if I'll agree to or not yet, I don't know how I [00:46:00] feel about how this has gone. I may have some beef.
[00:46:15] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Okay. But you have to drop what you wanted it to be and you have to just accept what is.
[00:46:22] J: It was great before we hit record.
[00:46:24] Jayla Rae Ardelean: No.
[00:46:25] J: And then it turned into an interview.
[00:46:27] Jayla Rae Ardelean: No, so everything that you shared in this conversation you don't think is true?
[00:46:34] J: No, I just, it's not that I don't know that I said things as clearly or authentically
[00:46:44] Jayla Rae Ardelean: articulately
[00:46:45] J: or articulately as I did when the camera was not turned on.
[00:46:51] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Well, it's not a camera, it's a voice.
[00:46:52] J: You know what? I'm
[00:46:53] Jayla Rae Ardelean: there's no camera recording. Maybe that is the nature of [00:47:00] humans. As soon as you hit record,
[00:47:02] J: we freeze up,
[00:47:03] Jayla Rae Ardelean: we freeze,
[00:47:04] J: and we're like, oh God, I feel like an idiot now,
[00:47:07] Jayla Rae Ardelean: And then the veil goes up and the honesty lessen. I'm not saying it's not still there. It lessens the authenticity lessons. The vulnerability lessons.
[00:47:21] J: Yeah.
[00:47:21] J: That's the, that's the vulnerability.
[00:47:24] Jayla Rae Ardelean: I feel like you were incredibly vulnerable just now. I was. Especially for all these people who are gonna hear this episode.
[00:47:33] J: No, they're not. There's not, we're not edited out.
[00:47:34] J: There's gonna be nothing lefted. It's gonna be a soundbite of me saying, hello, I'm her military hus band. Ah. Time three is great. Meyers Briggs as well.
[00:47:48] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Here's what it's like for a three and a four To be married.
[00:47:52] J: A focus, a mission of sort.
[00:47:54] Jayla Rae Ardelean: I need a mission.
[00:47:56] J: I am a robot.
[00:47:59] Jayla Rae Ardelean: You [00:48:00] weren't a robot. You weren't, you were really honest.
[00:48:10] J: Thank you.
[00:48:15] J: Does this mean more negronis are coming cuz they promote honesty ?
[00:48:18] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Yes.
[00:48:20] J: We need to start the recording earlier next time
[00:48:24] Jayla Rae Ardelean: without you knowing.
[00:48:25] J: Without me knowing. And then cut it off.
[00:48:26] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Do you give me permission to start it without you knowing
[00:48:29] J: if I can review whatever it is that you released Well, of release.
[00:48:31] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Well, of course I would never like put something out there that you said that you didn't approve
[00:48:38] J: because I say some crazy shit.
[00:48:40] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Oh. Yeah. You say some really wild shit,
[00:48:44] J: some really edgy shit.
[00:48:45] Jayla Rae Ardelean: Oh my God. If anything, you're like the inner monologue of many soldiers.
[00:48:53] Jayla Rae Ardelean: All right. Y'all thank you so much for tuning into our conversation about [00:49:00] potentially retiring from the military and the meaning of life. Um, hopefully you enjoyed it. We both would love to hear feedback on this episode, if this conversation. Uh, resonated with you in some way, because you've had similar conversations about retirement, you're facing that soon, making these kinds of decisions feels really complicated and like a lot -I'm right there with you. Uh, so I'd love to hear any feedback from you on Instagram at Milspouse. dot spouse, send me a DM, even if we've never spoken before.
[00:49:37] Jayla Rae Ardelean: if you have been a fan of the podcast for a while, let me know what you thought about this style of episode, where it was a little more impromptu. I'd love to get my service member on here as much as possible and I'm still shocked that he agreed to let me put this out into the world.
[00:49:54] Jayla Rae Ardelean: and as usual, please follow the podcast rate and review so that we can get it into the hands of [00:50:00] those who truly need it. Thanks y'all. Bye.